Winds Game Meeting–Full Discussion
Talking about Ancient lore and Adventurelog:
The storyline, the start of your adventure and the main source of the controversial “ancient lore” .. that’s a important subject to clear too
.Muratus del Mur.:I want you to understand how I do things
.Muratus del Mur.:let’s put it like this:
.Muratus del Mur.:I have certain ideas I want pointed out, but these ideas don’t have a specific for yet.
.Muratus del Mur.:I can turn almost anything in such way that will point those ideas out
.Muratus del Mur.:MD is a holder for those ideas, its built around them but its not built entirely out of them
.Muratus del Mur.:for example
.Muratus del Mur.:how the story development went, back years ago
.Muratus del Mur.:ady, the “storyteller” put up the scenery, I put the main nodes of the story where things should be in a precise way and when things should be a specific thing …but other than that, he wrote the
.Muratus del Mur.:story and created his own imaginary world to fill in the gasps
.Muratus del Mur.:I am no writer
.Muratus del Mur.:I contacted him for that purpose
.Muratus del Mur.:to put in nice for what I had in raw form
.Muratus del Mur.:so that’s why I am now against “ancient lore”, that is part of the story that is entirely made up of him, its disclosing ideas we both talked but puts them in a way i never agreed to
.Muratus del Mur.:him as a writer, could never stop what I asked him to do ONCE
.Muratus del Mur.:unlike probably any other game, md is not a bunch of fantasy that sounds good
.Muratus del Mur.:this method applied to artworks too, like this:
.Muratus del Mur.:for example when I “order” a new land, the artist knows what ideas to follow, what is the general feeling of the land, what things i want in it and so on BUT is him who puts in all the details and map setup
.Muratus del Mur.:not me
.Muratus del Mur.:he is building the map the exact locations and all
.Muratus del Mur.:I care only about certain things
.GlorDamar.:true, I’ll vouch for that
.Muratus del Mur.:things that will make sense only when you look at the comparison of the lands and their so called ballance
.Muratus del Mur.:I don’t care how the artist does his stuff there
.Muratus del Mur.:if it’s looking good, it’s good
.Muratus del Mur.:I will come in after and use what he did there and turn them into clickable items and even integrate them into a story or whatever
.Muratus del Mur.:a long as the main point is fulfilled and they are in “harmony” with the land I wanted, they are good
.Muratus del Mur.:same I did with the initial story
.Muratus del Mur.:I wanted some things pointed out, what came along with those things is also a great story but that story is the holder nothing more
.Muratus del Mur.:I actually encouraged Ady to write a book of his own using all those things
.Muratus del Mur.:I needed just what I asked him, every additional word is bad for what I need
.Muratus del Mur.:I needed QUESTIONS, he was pressed by players to give answers
.Muratus del Mur.:I planned what i needed and expressed it through others ART , art for which I paid always
Innocence:Well… without ruining the atmosphere of what you want, can you tell us why answers are… bad?
Arcturus:The questions were for us To explore…
.Muratus del Mur.:the questions, are the key to understanding, not the answers
.Muratus del Mur.:the right questions will keep your mind active in the right direction
.Muratus del Mur.:the answers are the death of the question, the end of a path, I want you to be on that path not to end it immediately
Arcturus:Kind of along the lines of, The Journey is more Important than the Destination right?
Lightsage:Stop playing WOW for a month and you won’t feel urged again
.Muratus del Mur.:no, the reason is not addiction!
Lightsage:No, but it’s a side effect
Lightsage:The questions stay
.Muratus del Mur.:the search for the answer is the key to progress not the answer itself
[22/05/09 03:19] Guybrush Threepwood:Mur, I don’t mean to say that this is the conclusion I have come to, but it what you’re saying could sound a bit like. “I am creating my own world, using my own ideas, anything else is just extra.”
[22/05/09 03:19] Windy:Questions make you seek outside yourself.
[22/05/09 03:19] .Muratus del Mur.:the question is what makes you improve, the answer just gives you peace of mind
[22/05/09 03:19] .Muratus del Mur.:there are answers, there almost always are
[22/05/09 03:20] Innocence:So… you are saying that the answers are irrelevant?
[22/05/09 03:20] Windy:I like that.
[22/05/09 03:20] .Ailith.:The learning is in the solving, not the answer (am a teacher in RL 😛)
[22/05/09 03:20] .Muratus del Mur.:just that if you find them you will lose a big point of this all
[22/05/09 03:20] Shady Jester:you can’t solve something made up by someone else
[22/05/09 03:20] .Muratus del Mur.:and ady presented answers i talked with him only to make HIM keep the story and the questions on the right track
[22/05/09 03:20] MRWander:its more what you learn by getting the answers and how it makes you grow i think
[22/05/09 03:20] .Muratus del Mur.:answers are indeed irrelevant
[22/05/09 03:20] Windy:Exactly. 🙂
[22/05/09 03:21] .Muratus del Mur.:i can prove that
[22/05/09 03:21] Shady Jester:if I read half a book, I can’t “solve” the other half
[22/05/09 03:21] Arcturus:Good Answers should only Lead to more Questions Wander
[22/05/09 03:21] Shady Jester:I can make up something, but its not a “solution”
[22/05/09 03:21] .Muratus del Mur.:and in fact, that’s the missing part of MD, the part that were supposed to be introduced later, that none of the people I worked with on md knew so far
[22/05/09 03:21] Guybrush Threepwood:Questions are important for growth, but answers can be too. After all, an answer often leads to more questions.
[22/05/09 03:22] .Muratus del Mur.:and I am introducing it as the Angiens concept …. NOTE: the word ANGIEN is made by ADY NOT BY ME, still for a purpose he didn’t knew 😀
[22/05/09 03:22] .Muratus del Mur.:so you see how i work …. and how i steal others work (as i was accused)….
[22/05/09 03:22] Arcturus:lol
[22/05/09 03:23] .SmartAlekRJ.:lol
[22/05/09 03:23] AkenEX:You do not steal you build upon right?
[22/05/09 03:23] .Kragel.:may I make my suggestion now ?
[22/05/09 03:23] .Muratus del Mur.:how else could i have you here talking about that if you didn’t think at first this is a awesome game? same with my people, how else could i have them do cool things if not give them just a part of the plan
[22/05/09 03:26] .Muratus del Mur.:now..since you are all here
[22/05/09 03:29] Innocence:Mur… I have a question, then… and I hope it has an answer because I am a little confused.
[22/05/09 03:30] Innocence:You say you don’t want answers… which, to me, means history to what occurred “before we were here.”
[22/05/09 03:31] Innocence:Khalazdad has turned Necrovion into the Sage Desert. He has become King through his story and roleplaying.
[22/05/09 03:31] Innocence:But, what if another player comes along and wants to alter that? What if he wants Necrovion to be something else?
[22/05/09 03:31] .Muratus del Mur.:inno, exactly, the ancient lore NEVER HAPPENED
[22/05/09 03:31] .Muratus del Mur.:that’s why I don’t want it also
[22/05/09 03:31] .Muratus del Mur.:there are plenty of things that happened
[22/05/09 03:31] .Muratus del Mur.:in md I mean
[22/05/09 03:31] .Muratus del Mur.:inno, ancient lore means characters like Marind, Daniel Raven, Jack Willow, etc.
[22/05/09 03:32] Lightsage:And if it never happened, what are all those buildings?
[22/05/09 03:32] .Muratus del Mur.:khal is not ancient
[22/05/09 03:32] Arcturus:The Ancient Lore was a like a Template to build on, Right? That’s kinda how I’ve always seen it
[22/05/09 03:32] .Muratus del Mur.:his story is valid, unless made up and based on ancient lore
[22/05/09 03:32] .Muratus del Mur.:my initial thought which I am sorry I didn’t do, was to start md with no memory of the past
[22/05/09 03:33] Guybrush Threepwood:So we can’t use anything we understand of history as a basis of our actions or ideas?
[22/05/09 03:33] .Muratus del Mur.:history is ok, made up history is not
[22/05/09 03:33] .Muratus del Mur.:ok let me put it like this
[22/05/09 03:33] Guybrush Threepwood:So the history of the land weapons are not good clues as to what they do or how they work?
[22/05/09 03:33] .Muratus del Mur.:MagicDuel is like a big mind …listen..
[22/05/09 03:33] Innocence:So, the “accepted” history of Wasp’s Totem is irrelevant? It doesn’t matter who built it… it matters how it is used now? Today?
[22/05/09 03:34] .Muratus del Mur.:the ancient lore, the story of Marind and so on, is the subconscious
[22/05/09 03:34] .Muratus del Mur.:its what drives behind our conscious mind
[22/05/09 03:34] .Muratus del Mur.:the mind we realize, its the lore that happens with real players over the time
[22/05/09 03:35] .Muratus del Mur.:so , act based on the history created by players, but do not act based on the ancient lore that it there to act as a foundation of this big mind
[22/05/09 03:36] .Muratus del Mur.:does this sound clearer inno?
[22/05/09 03:36] Shady Jester:so, are you saying one of us could change necrovion?
[22/05/09 03:36] Guybrush Threepwood:I’m confused, if it’s the foundation, shouldn’t things be based on it?
[22/05/09 03:36] Innocence:So, if I say that Wasp’s Tower is a conduit to another world… and enough people buy in… that’s what it will become?
[22/05/09 03:36] Windy:Like my pub for instance? Someone can expand on that idea?
[22/05/09 03:36] Arcturus:Guy, It’s like a Room that needs to be Filled
[22/05/09 03:37] Arcturus:The Lore Built the place… Now we get to do what WE will with it
[22/05/09 03:37] Innocence:If I want Necrovion to be an amusement park, and I get enough people to buy into it, that’s what it’ll be?
[22/05/09 03:37] .SmartAlekRJ.:i wouldn’t be suprised
[22/05/09 03:37] .Muratus del Mur.:no, i am trying to make a difference between “ancient lore” (story made up to start md and put the right questions) and the actual lore (story of what players do, actually do!<
[22/05/09 03:37] Shady Jester:unless it doesn’t fit with Mur’s plan, I’d guess
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:yes, IF YOU GET ENOUGH PEOPLE TO THINK THAT
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:that’s the key,
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:in md , reality is what we all see, get all to see something else and then THAT’S reality
[22/05/09 03:38] Windy:lol]
[22/05/09 03:38] Tren Salister:interesting
[22/05/09 03:38] Guybrush Threepwood:So, everything previously done and known as true can be thrown out the window?
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:not only in md actualy 😀
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:nope
[22/05/09 03:38] .Muratus del Mur.:you cant do that unless you can erase people minds 😀
[22/05/09 03:38] .Kragel.:inno more like when the construction on the MDA was going on and will continue soon because enough people believed it and worked to make it happen it DID
[22/05/09 03:39] Lightsage:Well there’s these therapeutic shocks…
[22/05/09 03:39] .Muratus del Mur.:so you cant act as if it never happened when the history says it did and people remember it
[22/05/09 03:39] Shady Jester:if I got enough people to believe Angiens didn’t exist, would they stop existing?
[22/05/09 03:39] Arcturus:Glad to know I had this all pegged right…
[22/05/09 03:39] Windy:Wow! We’ve got learning going on here! ^^
[22/05/09 03:39] .Kragel.:in the minds of those who don’t believe in them yes shady
[22/05/09 03:39] .Muratus del Mur.:BUT, ancient lore that’s made up, can be changed, because people can’t actually remember it!!, so that’s why its damaging md right now
[22/05/09 03:39] Shady Jester:but if enough people did, then they wouldn’t, is what I heard
[22/05/09 03:40] Tren Salister:Mur, can we expand the world map and create new places as players?
[22/05/09 03:40] Windy:One cannot act like Pearl Harbor didn’t happen. XD
[22/05/09 03:40] .SmartAlekRJ.:yea so you cant for instance get enough people to say the dojo doesn’t exist and think it will disappear
[22/05/09 03:40] Shady Jester:yes you can Tren…
[22/05/09 03:40] .Muratus del Mur.:Tren… it already happened , ask glor 😀
[22/05/09 03:40] Tren Salister:but how hard is it to do?
[22/05/09 03:41] Lightsage:Very, it’s a lot of work
[22/05/09 03:42] Lightsage:Wow, whole new perspective
[22/05/09 03:42] .Muratus del Mur.:I adapt, I said NO only to things that were UNREAL, I never denied things that happened
[22/05/09 03:42] .Muratus del Mur.:i do not need to make people believe in what i do , i only need to eliminate all bullshit even if that bullshit sounds awsome
[22/05/09 03:42] .Kragel.:ok so are ready to … nvm
[22/05/09 03:43] werewolfer:so in other words player can pretty much almost vhange what md is in a way
[22/05/09 03:43] Arcturus:They have already
[22/05/09 03:43] .Metal Bunny.:lol
[22/05/09 03:43] Windy:MD has changed a lot since I got here..partly my fault…partly not… *giggles*
[22/05/09 03:43] Arcturus:In lots of ways
[22/05/09 03:43] .Metal Bunny.:this entire situation is…
[22/05/09 03:44] Windy: (Mostly SageWoman’s fault XD)
[22/05/09 03:44] .Metal Bunny.:is just…
[22/05/09 03:44] .SmartAlekRJ.:the same as last year?
[22/05/09 03:44] .Metal Bunny.:lol…
[22/05/09 03:44] Tren Salister:Mur as the game owner do you have any directins you don’t want the players to take MD?
[22/05/09 03:44] .Muratus del Mur.:md has its solid structure allready, fantasy lore continued by people with whom i talked secrets can shake it, social riots can shake it, but nothing creative that you will do can
You want to repeatedly confound us, and you talk about division into incomprehensible fractions…You want a world that, no matter what frame we look at it from, contains confounding factors. I’m sure there’s more to it than that, but you want us perpetually overwhelmed by something.
The merit is in the solving because we remember the new frames (think of them as different numeric bases, to carry on the relatively simple division analogy) and how we came to them, and can reuse that ability.
And of course, he who controls the present controls the past; He who controls the past controls the future.
Now, regarding your so-called questions…would you call completing the square a question? Martial arts ask, “If these are the rules of the body, what should I do to achieve this?” but the thoughtful; individual can decide what “this” is within other rules, and the rules themselves were only discovered by finding lots of answers, lots of ways.
Religion asks, “If these are the rules of everything and these are all the goals, what should we do to achieve which goals?” But the goals contradict and collude and split up and fuse, supposedly according to the rules…So that embedded question, “Which goals?” asks for a deeper understanding of the question…And you end up asking questions about the question, trying lots of paths to the path. Is the path really meant to be found? It’s a very clever way to make people start using tools to find questions.
I love how you defined god the same way I do: God is the placeholder. When we don’t understand, we use God to accept our incomplete understanding while we recuperate…Then when we’re ready again, we keep pushing. I carried this another step, presuming that some people are okay with more confusion than others, or become more quickly exhausted with the push for answers. So for instance, I have a friend who doesn’t believe chemistry and talks about God instead. Einstein needed a break from physics, and instead of accepting quantum mechanics said God doesn’t play dice; later, he found the strength to continue enriching his understanding of how stuff works and stopped using that God excuse. Yes, God is the temporary answer; he is the tabernacle that hides the next part of the path while we sleep. Even so, I have found him useful: I was until recently resting at a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics; physics class and re-readings of your inquiries have woken me up again. It is very important to know that one is sleeping, and that the path continues beyond where you are resting.
Each of us is, of course, traveling many paths at the same time. Thus it is important to be sleeping on some paths while we carefully step along others.
I’ve suggested that the question of how stuff works at a very basic level is an important. Since this question is so close to an answer that is definitive within the current limits of instrumental perception, Mur might be getting worried (Notice again that the answer still isn’t definite because our perceptions aren’t.) But worry not! Because next comes the same question as in martial arts: “Knowing how stuff works, what advantages can we make of it?” Already we have nanotechnology, but more powerful things will come. And evermore…We’ll be creating artificial intelligence before the end of the century.
I stopped noticing the relevance when you started discussing cardinalities of infinities. By the way, the number of cardinalities of infinities exceeds any infinity of any cardinality…I needed to take a long rest from math after hearing that one. Fortunately, I had God, and used him to allow that nap.
How do we know if we’re sleeping too much?
All of this talk is a basic introduction to Chaos Magik. It’s been the primary occult practice in those circles since the late 70’s/early 80’s. It has a strong foundation in Theoretical Physics.
To sum it up: Faith/Belief is power and can change Reality.
The more Faith/Belief a concept has the more “real” it becomes. There is a dimension of possibility between our physical reality and the “Outside”. It is called the Ether.
Our beliefs if powerful enough become Thought-Forms in the Ether. The power of all that faith coalesces and becomes an Entity. That Entity becomes more powerful as Faith fuels it. The more believers it has (MP’s 6 concept of Adepts sacrificing Heat) the more control over Reality it gains.
Why are there Religious Wars? To stamp out opposing Thought-Forms. So our Reality is pushed in the direction that one faction chooses over anther’s vision.
It does not matter if Jesus Christ was “god”. If enough people believe it then it becomes true. The concepts that are associated with that “god” gain power too.
I was put on the trail of these truths. I read the books that outlined the path. Ultimately I held the books under running water then tore them to pieces before I bound them in plastic before I disposed of them.
Why do Churches have pointed steeples? (Sacred Geometry, look it up) Why is gold used on the Altar? (Look into Medieval Alchemy). Can objects hold the power of Faith? Definitely.
After years of being “dark” in my style. I came to understand what “Real” Darkness was (Look up Aleister Crowley’s writings on reaching the True Self or Magical Self)
1 day I reached into my desk drawer and pulled out my Grandfather’s old gold Cross. Now I never take it off.
I’m far from some Born Again Christian. I wear it for Occult purposes. I know the power of the Old Man’s Faith is inside the Cross.
I ended a relationship with the woman who introduced me to these concepts. I told her that I would have no problem setting her on Fire to remove her and her beliefs from this world.
Evil is real. There is a War going on all around us that few ever see.
MD could be fueling one man with the power of our Belief. Or, it could be just a game. You decide….