Winds Game Meeting–Full Discussion

This is the rest that i have of the chat at Winds Game meeting. From now on PLEASE document such meetings the way i did, by providing the full chat with irrelevant replies and rp taken out and the essential replies in red. A lot of things get lost if you don;t do that, and those lazy people that don’t care to read will only understand a fraction of what its been said and usually the wrong fraction.

If you want to make a short summary of such meetings (not only mine!) then also provide the discussion for those that missed it and don’t want to read only a few conclusions.

I am waiting for someone that has the FULL LOG so i continue to arrange it like with the previous pages. I don’t care about a log where are only the things I said, I want the FULL thing.

Thank you pample for “The Bow and the String” you pointed out some important stuff there, but there are a lot more that is not covered. Your article is good a an introductory article but not as a full documentation of such an important meeting, no offence intended by me putting this up just after you placed the other one.
.Muratus del Mur.: what would people do if they major searches will one day simply get their answers..they will die
.Muratus del Mur.: answers are the death of the question, we always put questions, even when we reach an answer we still WANT more questions
.Muratus del Mur.: hahha, oh but the christians is what I had in mind
.Muratus del Mur.: because its the most intriguing part
.Muratus del Mur.: salvation was never supposed to be reached
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀
.Muratus del Mur.: that salvation “””” exists in all major ideologies
.Muratus del Mur.: that is the abstract answer holding the right question
.Muratus del Mur.: in case of christianity its not that obvious because churche kept it as a manipulation “device” but its still visible … the one holding the answer will influence the questions and by that what people
.Muratus del Mur.: people do
.Muratus del Mur.: the most powerful manipulation device is this mechanism of question and answer
.Muratus del Mur.: it has a lot to do
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀

.Muratus del Mur.: like I said , angiens are the missing part of this big puzzle, and by angiens I mean what they represent
.Muratus del Mur.: so, holding the answer is the magnet so to speak
.Muratus del Mur.: it will cause others seek it , and feed their question
.Muratus del Mur.: its present in nature allover, from animals to complex human thoughts
.Muratus del Mur.: the question is what we see daily, the answer is what keeps the question going
.Muratus del Mur.: we build tools to achieve answers, we build culture to keep memory of the right questionst to put
Innocence: But… wait… you said… you said that the answer is the death of the question?
Innocence: How can the answer keep the question going?
.Muratus del Mur.: the answer is the tip of the pyramid, the more it goes up the bigger the pyramid will be
.Muratus del Mur.: yes, it can,
.Muratus del Mur.: for example
.Muratus del Mur.: we die
.Muratus del Mur.: we all die eventually
.Muratus del Mur.: life is the question we all leave in
.Muratus del Mur.: death is the answer to life
.Muratus del Mur.: but we all seek to make our lifes better
.Muratus del Mur.: if the answer is abstract or far enough, the question never dies
.Muratus del Mur.: so
.Muratus del Mur.: religion for example puts as a “answer” god, or afterlife, it simply shifts the answer away to control the question below it
.Muratus del Mur.: mmm, you get this wrong, let me think how  can rephrase it.
.Muratus del Mur.: lol I was thinking where I can find an example of this and realized I can find it everywhere, even in this discussion here and now
.Muratus del Mur.: the answer of this discussion consists in understanding the right questions, the talk we have is the answer of this discussion
.Muratus del Mur.: the purpose
.Muratus del Mur.: the one controlling the answers is controlling the questions too, and by that is controlling what people do
.Muratus del Mur.: power is an answer for example
.Muratus del Mur.: god is an answer (both a question but only for some)
.Muratus del Mur.: if you understand things in matters of question and answer, all things around you, you will see things differently
.Muratus del Mur.: if you understand that answers are static, and questions are not
Lightsage: For there are different answers?
.Muratus del Mur.: you will see that things happen only during the question part and the answer is just the inevitable conclusion of facts
Innocence: I’m not sure I agree with that. But, I am interested to know where you are going with this.
.Muratus del Mur.: no
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀
.Muratus del Mur.: there are just different questions
.Muratus del Mur.: thats the right way to put it
.Muratus del Mur.: it looks like there are different answers
.Muratus del Mur.: let me explain why
.Muratus del Mur.: our mind cant leave without answers, true?
.Muratus del Mur.: its true trust me 😀
.Muratus del Mur.: now, each mind can judge things differently based on its processing power or cumulated proof for a certain researched question
.Muratus del Mur.: because our mind cant leave without answers, it will jump to best answer when it gets tired of keeping the question alive
.Muratus del Mur.: so thats why we find different answers to a question.
.Muratus del Mur.: when we give up questioning ourselfes and decide we find the right answer
.Muratus del Mur.: but if the question is more complex than 2 plus 2 equal 4
.Muratus del Mur.: then our mind will keep on going untill it finds the most probably answer
.Muratus del Mur.: if the question is even more complex it will simply stop and ACCEPT
.Muratus del Mur.: you accept god you do not understand it
.Muratus del Mur.: the true way is the one that does not find the targeted answer but keeps pointing to it… and I am speaking both of religion, art, phylosophy and so on
Lightsage: So what if there’s more possible answers?
.Muratus del Mur.: that only means you have more options to “stop” the question
.Muratus del Mur.: there are many answers to GOD, that’s because there are many ways to stop on the way to heaven LOL …that sounded good even for a nonbeliever
.Muratus del Mur.: but god as a concept is the best possible example because it is actualy the ideal “unreachable” answer of them all
Lightsage: to bad the different answers exclude eachother
Lightsage: Making my mind conclude there is no “right” answer
.Muratus del Mur.: exactly
.Muratus del Mur.: because there is no answer
.Muratus del Mur.: thats the power of the mystery
.Muratus del Mur.: to keep the ideal question without beeing compromised of the right question
.Muratus del Mur.: the perfect state of mind, nirvana, or in zen or in christianity or in hwat you want, is not giving an answer, is telling stories about a possible one
.Muratus del Mur.: the thinking of “nothing” in zen for example
.Muratus del Mur.: how can it be? to think so mcuh about nothing, why is that the purpose, ….
.Muratus del Mur.: because only like that you can avoid the temptation to reach an answer
.Muratus del Mur.: once you reach an answer, your mind closes that process and files it in the right folder
.Muratus del Mur.: which is bad actualy
.Muratus del Mur.: since your mind evolved only when it thinks
.Muratus del Mur.: of course, they all have answers
Innocence: I mean… it can’t be that all questions shouldn’t be answered.
Shady Jester: how do you know you’ve found the right answer?
Innocence: How do you, or anyone, know or tell the difference?
.Cryxus.: you find the best answer, jester
Camilla: Does it matter if you have?
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀
.Muratus del Mur.: you probably noticed that in this conversation we already reached things that both make sense but also contradict themselves
.Muratus del Mur.: and thats becaues the most extreme things always “touch” each other
MasterB: ok, ok, so implement this example into the Angiens … that’s what we’re trying 2 seek here, right ?
.Muratus del Mur.: 🙂
.Muratus del Mur.: like I said the angiens were the missing part of the puzzle, stating that the question is more important than the answer and that those who hold the answer control the question
Guybrush Threepw.: Extremes often contradict eachother, but only because most often only one, or perhaps neither, is correct.
.Muratus del Mur.: wrong
.Muratus del Mur.: extremes , if both right, will always collide
.Muratus del Mur.: if they dont , they are not extreme enough
.Muratus del Mur.: using this theory you could predict the other extreme of a thing if you already know one of them
.Metal Bunny.: great you now all reached the philosophical level of the 19th century
.Muratus del Mur.: hahhaha
.Muratus del Mur.: well mb, you will be amazed but thats a huge step actualy
.Metal Bunny.: indeed it is
Innocence: If I never eat, I’ll die… if I eat all the time… I’ll live forever?
.Muratus del Mur.: if you eat all the time you will live forever , no, if you dont eat you die, they are not similar.
Wigbert: so… what’s this place and the game about?
(lots of chattering)
.Muratus del Mur.: you see, the eternal question arises :)))
(lots of chattering)
.Muratus del Mur.: the awsomeness of abstract answers (and therefore abstract questions leading to them) is that it leaves room for interpretation
.Muratus del Mur.: 🙂
.Muratus del Mur.: I have an awesome example to show but it involves math a lot
.Muratus del Mur.: so, for a moment , listen carefuly
.Muratus del Mur.: its very simple to put , but dificutl to fully understand
.Muratus del Mur.: you all know that numbers are endless, 1,2,3,4…. etc
.Muratus del Mur.: so endless in the sense that by theory you can epand them forever always adding one to the previous number
.Muratus del Mur.: that in fact, is the best representation of infinty in our mind, since the concept itself as a pure thought is not native in human minds
.Muratus del Mur.: but now comes the shock …
.Muratus del Mur.: the “group” of rational numbers, if considered as a whole, is SMALLER than the group of other number types..like irational numbers for example… (sorry for my lack of english math terms)
.Muratus del Mur.: i hope you get what i mean by group
Lightsage: Complex numbers
.Muratus del Mur.: yes
Lightsage: Is the term
.Muratus del Mur.: nono, the group
.Muratus del Mur.: aLL the rational numbers together
.Cryxus.: because you view it as 1 group, right?
.Muratus del Mur.: are less than all the irrational numbers
.Muratus del Mur.: so how could that be possible??? a genuine infinite process to be smaller than an other infinite process toghether
.Muratus del Mur.: so two groups of infinite things (to generalize) can be compared and one can be greater or smaller than the other
.Muratus del Mur.: included, means the other one is bigger
.Muratus del Mur.: not bigger or smaller in the sense 1 < 2
.Muratus del Mur.: the infinite as a simple incrementing pattern is simply not suffucient nor correct to describe true infinity
.Muratus del Mur.: math is a representation of reality, philosophy is also a interpreteation of reality
.Muratus del Mur.: both collide at some point
.Muratus del Mur.: so math and theory try to describe and play with concepts such as infinity and zero , like “forever” and “never” terms
.Muratus del Mur.: back to our business here…. the infinity is the answer … the question is the void, the lack of the answer BUT (this gets confusing) because true extremes collide , the infinity is actually also the
.Muratus del Mur.: question, the path that takes you to the answer and the answer is the void itself
.Muratus del Mur.: thats speaking in purely philosophical and absolute terms
.Muratus del Mur.: both ways are right, thats confusing, but its extremely helpful to know
Guybrush Threepw.: How is the question the void? The question is not about nothing.
.Muratus del Mur.: because it also makes sense with the fact that the question is the result of the right answer and the answer is the result of the right question
.Muratus del Mur.: see question and answer , then compare it to void and infinity, try to associate them see who is who
.Muratus del Mur.: you will end up like a circus clown playing with sticks from one hand to the other
Taikan: Couldn’t a question also be the result of a wrong answer?
.Muratus del Mur.: of course it can
.Muratus del Mur.: people can believe in wrong things too
.Muratus del Mur.: and because of the wrong answer they will put wrong questions
Guybrush Threepw.: No, everything is not nothing.
.Cryxus.: or the question of a less than adequate answer 😛
TheComedian: But didnt we just say there is no right answer so everyone believes in wrong answers
.Muratus del Mur.: guy, everything IS nothing and the opposite
Gauge: I like that better Cyrx.
.Muratus del Mur.: that if put alone in a phrase , makes no sense
.Muratus del Mur.: because thats the general “border” of things
.Muratus del Mur.: if you see the hugeness of the universe or how empty it actualy is, you miss the beauty of life, so in this big picture defined by void and infinity, you will have to pick yopur focus spot
.Muratus del Mur.: understanding the world you live in will end up in appreciating the small part you actualy understand better
.Muratus del Mur.: we all (should) seek for the great answer so to speak
.Muratus del Mur.: everybody, if asked, whats the most important question will have the first attempt to put in front something huge
.Muratus del Mur.: like whats the meaning of life
.Muratus del Mur.: that theoretical question _we made up_ is what we need as a distant point of reference so that we can build up ower own questions
.Muratus del Mur.: our mind does not have the freedom that we think it has, it cant live without answers and it cant think without questions
.Muratus del Mur.: if we understand that we understand when we fail of understanding things and when we give up on trying without knowing
.Muratus del Mur.: indeed once you get a small grasp of whats “out there” you will have a strong temptation to stay “down here”
.Muratus del Mur.: 🙂
.Muratus del Mur.: what drives our mind at all, why do we even think of the things we do…
.Muratus del Mur.: thats the good question
.Muratus del Mur.: or “a” good question
.Muratus del Mur.: there is a neverending jurny to understnad the universe, BUT……
.Muratus del Mur.: like the mathematical infinity it’s defineable and infinite only in theory comparing to other more infinite things,…. the universe is the same….
.Muratus del Mur.: angiens role in the ballance of the game was to provide that untouchable answer that holds the question
.Muratus del Mur.: giving it on a plate it’s like stabbing a knife in md heart
.Cryxus.: shades were the question?
.Muratus del Mur.: no, shades were not the question 😀
.Muratus del Mur.: it’s like this:
.Muratus del Mur.: take a string
.Muratus del Mur.: bind it on one end
.Muratus del Mur.: the begining of md
.Muratus del Mur.: then use angiens to bind it on the other end
.Muratus del Mur.: use shades to bend the string in one direction,…here you have it…a bow
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀
Guybrush Threepw.: And what is this question?
.Muratus del Mur.: that is the question
.Muratus del Mur.: what guy said just now
.Muratus del Mur.: 😀
(chatter)
.Muratus del Mur.: a paradox is actualy a gate to something else, it shows there was a mistake in the process and that the universe you play in is limited and flawed if compared to a bigger perspective
(chatter)
.Muratus del Mur.: md is limited and flawed if viewed from a bigger perspective yes
.Muratus del Mur.: like ANYTHING else including the universe itself:D
.Muratus del Mur.: understanding this keeps our mind working and keeps it out of the usual pitfall of thinking everything is perfect and we should not question it
.Muratus del Mur.: because we see the universe in layers
.Muratus del Mur.: each layer we understand is flawed if compared to it plus 1
.Muratus del Mur.: flawed as in incomplete
.Muratus del Mur.: the true religions teach about questions not anout answers, my personal opinion
.Muratus del Mur.: yes I realize it sounds like a sect
.Muratus del Mur.: lol
.Muratus del Mur.: its hard to describe what i want to say
.Muratus del Mur.: I do not refer to a particular religion
.Muratus del Mur.: I refer to religion in general
.Muratus del Mur.: religion, means a way of life, a search of god, whatever god it is and whatever the culture it is … the answer is god, of course, but the finding of that god is never supposed to happen, he is
.Muratus del Mur.: presented as superior regardless how high you are
.Muratus del Mur.: he is a concept for those that are “realistic” and a deity for those that are “spiritual”
.Muratus del Mur.: he is untouchable
.Muratus del Mur.: superior enough not to be “touched”
.Muratus del Mur.: does any religion encourage you to become like god?
(Guybrush continues to argue with Mur for a while)
.Muratus del Mur.: yes, big religions present gods as something untouchable, so that they control the “answer” resulting in controlling the “questions” … but what i consider a correct way is that we can all seek for
.Muratus del Mur.: our inner “god” that will turn the question of our life fully in our hands
.Muratus del Mur.: MD should be tottaly free of predefined religious concepts
.Muratus del Mur.: that’s essential
.Muratus del Mur.: I consider religion as something that does not keep our mind searching for the right questions (not for the answers)
.Muratus del Mur.: I dare to say that I try to understand both the way of the blind believer and that of the atheist, I can’t go fully into any but I don’t shut my eyes to understanding either of them,
.Muratus del Mur.: unfortunately my research so far took me on a path that is not at all “pro” religion
.Muratus del Mur.: I think religion is the lack of freedom to formulate our own questions
.Muratus del Mur.: because it gives the answers already
.Muratus del Mur.: yes those are my only two categories, and in case you didn’t notice I am not in one of them which should say a lot too about how much 1 plus 1 means to me
.Muratus del Mur.: angiens …. well yes, they are that part that gives the answer in order to manipulate the question
.Muratus del Mur.: they already did so
(The word for something that is a question and an answer is “faith”)
.Muratus del Mur.: that’s what keeps the question running and never touches the answer
.Muratus del Mur.: that’s what I consider the useful part of religion the one thing you can find in any religion
.Muratus del Mur.: some can do it consciously some need gods and humility to realise it
.Muratus del Mur.: I think you received enough reasons to think tonigh
.Muratus del Mur.: 🙂
.Muratus del Mur.: which after all its the important part
.MRD.: If say I believe in you to make the right decisions for MD, does that make it a religious faith?
.Muratus del Mur.: exactly, faith is the fuel, the purpose and the explanation of such things, its the result of questions and answers
.Muratus del Mur.: you can shatter faith by altering the path (the question) or the answer
.Muratus del Mur.: it’s most common there and the word is associated with religion but its not only there
.Muratus del Mur.: I do have faith and I am not religious
.Muratus del Mur.: I use faith to keep me running
.Muratus del Mur.: haha
.Muratus del Mur.: faith is what could be also called the middle way between decision and action, betwen action and purpose and so on, its endless yet limited , its part of our understanding of the universe, and will
.Muratus del Mur.: hold many more mysteries here in md
.Muratus del Mur.: one more note about faith, its not related to reason or purpose , its entirely “redirectable”
.Muratus del Mur.: it’s independent
.Muratus del Mur.: because it holds both answer and question in our mind
.Muratus del Mur.: if you understand to see faith redirectable, it means you will be able to “train” it and use it for any purpose
.Muratus del Mur.: its like a secret magical power 🙂

2 comments on “Winds Game Meeting–Full Discussion
  1. Numerius Felix says:

    Mur,

    You want to repeatedly confound us, and you talk about division into incomprehensible fractions…You want a world that, no matter what frame we look at it from, contains confounding factors. I’m sure there’s more to it than that, but you want us perpetually overwhelmed by something.

    The merit is in the solving because we remember the new frames (think of them as different numeric bases, to carry on the relatively simple division analogy) and how we came to them, and can reuse that ability.

    And of course, he who controls the present controls the past; He who controls the past controls the future.

    Now, regarding your so-called questions…would you call completing the square a question? Martial arts ask, “If these are the rules of the body, what should I do to achieve this?” but the thoughtful; individual can decide what “this” is within other rules, and the rules themselves were only discovered by finding lots of answers, lots of ways.

    Religion asks, “If these are the rules of everything and these are all the goals, what should we do to achieve which goals?” But the goals contradict and collude and split up and fuse, supposedly according to the rules…So that embedded question, “Which goals?” asks for a deeper understanding of the question…And you end up asking questions about the question, trying lots of paths to the path. Is the path really meant to be found? It’s a very clever way to make people start using tools to find questions.

    I love how you defined god the same way I do: God is the placeholder. When we don’t understand, we use God to accept our incomplete understanding while we recuperate…Then when we’re ready again, we keep pushing. I carried this another step, presuming that some people are okay with more confusion than others, or become more quickly exhausted with the push for answers. So for instance, I have a friend who doesn’t believe chemistry and talks about God instead. Einstein needed a break from physics, and instead of accepting quantum mechanics said God doesn’t play dice; later, he found the strength to continue enriching his understanding of how stuff works and stopped using that God excuse. Yes, God is the temporary answer; he is the tabernacle that hides the next part of the path while we sleep. Even so, I have found him useful: I was until recently resting at a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics; physics class and re-readings of your inquiries have woken me up again. It is very important to know that one is sleeping, and that the path continues beyond where you are resting.

    Each of us is, of course, traveling many paths at the same time. Thus it is important to be sleeping on some paths while we carefully step along others.

    I’ve suggested that the question of how stuff works at a very basic level is an important. Since this question is so close to an answer that is definitive within the current limits of instrumental perception, Mur might be getting worried (Notice again that the answer still isn’t definite because our perceptions aren’t.) But worry not! Because next comes the same question as in martial arts: “Knowing how stuff works, what advantages can we make of it?” Already we have nanotechnology, but more powerful things will come. And evermore…We’ll be creating artificial intelligence before the end of the century.

    I stopped noticing the relevance when you started discussing cardinalities of infinities. By the way, the number of cardinalities of infinities exceeds any infinity of any cardinality…I needed to take a long rest from math after hearing that one. Fortunately, I had God, and used him to allow that nap.

    How do we know if we’re sleeping too much?

  2. Inqr says:

    All of this talk is a basic introduction to Chaos Magik. It’s been the primary occult practice in those circles since the late 70’s/early 80’s. It has a strong foundation in Theoretical Physics.

    To sum it up: Faith/Belief is power and can change Reality.

    The more Faith/Belief a concept has the more “real” it becomes. There is a dimension of possibility between our physical reality and the “Outside”. It is called the Ether.

    Our beliefs if powerful enough become Thought-Forms in the Ether. The power of all that faith coalesces and becomes an Entity. That Entity becomes more powerful as Faith fuels it. The more believers it has (MP’s 6 concept of Adepts sacrificing Heat) the more control over Reality it gains.

    Why are there Religious Wars? To stamp out opposing Thought-Forms. So our Reality is pushed in the direction that one faction chooses over anther’s vision.

    It does not matter if Jesus Christ was “god”. If enough people believe it then it becomes true. The concepts that are associated with that “god” gain power too.

    I was put on the trail of these truths. I read the books that outlined the path. Ultimately I held the books under running water then tore them to pieces before I bound them in plastic before I disposed of them.

    Why do Churches have pointed steeples? (Sacred Geometry, look it up) Why is gold used on the Altar? (Look into Medieval Alchemy). Can objects hold the power of Faith? Definitely.

    After years of being “dark” in my style. I came to understand what “Real” Darkness was (Look up Aleister Crowley’s writings on reaching the True Self or Magical Self)

    1 day I reached into my desk drawer and pulled out my Grandfather’s old gold Cross. Now I never take it off.

    I’m far from some Born Again Christian. I wear it for Occult purposes. I know the power of the Old Man’s Faith is inside the Cross.

    I ended a relationship with the woman who introduced me to these concepts. I told her that I would have no problem setting her on Fire to remove her and her beliefs from this world.

    Evil is real. There is a War going on all around us that few ever see.

    MD could be fueling one man with the power of our Belief. Or, it could be just a game. You decide….

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